Opinions Needed

What age do you usually breed? I am in the US and my vet told me I couldn't do the xrays til she was 2. Do all of you do the xrays? She"ll be 2 in Feb 2010 and that is also when her next season will be do. The vet said I couldn't do the xrays til 30 days after her season. So right now it looks like I shouldn't breed til next July/August(her season after that)and she'll be 2 1/2 at that time. I will do whats best for her of course but I am anxious and really wanted spring puppies, just think it's easier weather wise than fall season. Oh, yeah, another problem will be finding her a stud or someone willing to ship me the goods so the vet could do it, any suggestions on that. Any suggestions will help, I tried with my 1st saint and it didn't take and this is something I have always wanted to do. Thanks

I Dont know about the usa but over here we have hip scores done at a year old and we breed our bitches on there third season (around 18 months) We would be willing to send you the goods so to speak we have diesel a gorgous smooth coated boy with the cleanest face i have seen on a saint he is doing well in the show ring and is qulified for crufts 2010 go to his show results page on my web site www.fairviewstbernards.co.uk

really, I wonder why so much difference, thats a year. Dakota is not a real big saint, is currently 18 months and about alittle over 100 lbs. I checked out your website and Diesel is very handsome, I like him. My Dakota is a rough coat, do they usually mix coats with breeding? If so, what is the usual outcome, some smooth some rough or do you get some inbetween. Sorry for all the ?. I had spoken to my best friend who is a vet assistant and she mentioned that you could do the xrays after she was breed if I didn't want to wait another year. Also, I thought breeding in the spring would be easier as it isn't as cold outside but she mentioned she prefers fall as it is easier to train when it's a little cooler. Any opinions on what everybody prefers? I'll listen to any advice. I have owned saints before but never bred and it is something I really would love.
Thanks everyone

you would get some of both

i breed when the bitch is ready the time of year doesnt bother me , daisy had pups in january with the snow!

i suppose its best to see how her hips are before you mate her however even if they are perfect it dosent mean the pups will be in the clear!

you will need to think about loads of things but can you have all that time off work??

cheri

My husband and I own our own business which is located on the same property as our home so we are home all day everyday so the time thing isn't a concern. Thats true on the hip thing, just because she doesn't have any problems doesn't mean pups wouldn't. I guess time of year really doesn't matter that much either as her heat cycle is roughly Feb and Aug. Thanks for your help Cheri, also what are your stud fees?

the time of year can make a differnce to if you need heat lamps or fans but not much else when it comes to the weather,

trying to sell pups near christmas can be hard as most people would wait until after when the house is back settled and normal and lot more safer

there are those people who would cancel christmas to have a new pup though!!

we are waiting until december to have diesels sperm checked and him hip scored and we can go from there

remember you would get a mixed litter ( if you use a smooth dog)all will be born smooth so you wont be sure of what they are going to be until 4-5 weeks old when the roughs start showing themselves as messy little bundles! do you know if your bitches parents and grandparents are all roughs?

as a rough guide ive found most stud fees here are from £600 to £1000 obviously we would need to get the sperm to you but to be honest i wont be charging high rates for sperm !

cheri

thanks again for the answers.
So you also have rough coat males?

no all my st bernards are smooth xx

im a smoothie addict!

well, I have awhile to decide anyway, just thought I'd start asking around to see if anyone was interested as I don't want the time to creep up on me and I'm not ready or haven't found a male. I want to be sure to have it all set up for when the time comes. I'm beginning to think going the route of having the vet inject her would be easier than trying to set up a schedule with the person owning the male. I live in an area not well populated and it's difficult to find a saint around close by

well you have some time to think it over there are some studs on here and by the time you need ne should be a few more

its worth specking to your vet about everything as soon as you can so you are clear where they stand on helping

we always premate our bitches im guessing you have the same sort of thing your way to see when shes best to mate?

cheri

I have already spoken to her vet to see if they offer that service and they do, they will inject no problem.
I do not know what premate means though as I never have bred any dogs before

when your bitch is in season after day 8 you can have a blood test done called premate to see when is the best day to mate her its when she is at the optimum time

cheri

Hi Dakota,

You asked for opinions, so here goes.
We do not breed from our girls until they are 2 years old and do find that Spring/Summer litters do better and are easier, as they can spend time outside in the fresh air and sunshine.
You have to look at the reasons why you want to breed a litter and also be aware of what can go wrong and the devastation and upset this causes - we lost a lovely imported girl having a c-section and then most of her puppies died over a period of 2 weeks. The purpose of breeding should be to try and better and improve your lines and the breed itself (this is what we try to do, although does not always work!)
Do you show your girl?? You need to critically evaluate her good and bad points and would advise getting the opinion of her breeder or breed specialists as you should only be breeding from good examples of the breed{if you show you will already have this). When chosing a stud dog you need to find a male that compliments your girl, so you do not "double up" on faults. It is also very useful to look at the offspring that a stud dog is producing. It is also important to research the lines and dogs behind both dogs and try and find out about health issues etc, so as to try and avoid "doubling up" on any problems.
Also if you are considering using AI then I have heard the success rate is quite low (but do not know the exact figure)
Hope this helps

Karen

Thanks Cheri, I do believe that is done here also.

Thanks Karen, I appreciate any opinions and honesty. I wouldn't breed her until she is 2- 2 1/2 as she is 18 months now and just past her season.
I do not show her and she is just our family's little girl but I would take into consideration the male and make sure he's suited for her.

My opinion, for what it's worth while I am wading knee deep in puppies rearing the hardest litter I've had so far!!
I think in the States surgical AI is done & is perfectly accepted & is more sucessful, here if we want to so AI it has to be trans cervical in order for our Kennel Club to register the puppies.
Definitely definitely research your stud dogs, as Karen says you want to avoid doubling up on any health problems etc.
However much people love having puppies, whelping & rearing a giant breed litter is extremely hard work, expensive, time consuming & is fraught with potential problems. You want to get the very best puppies you can for your hard work & $$.
In this country many of the 'top' kennels with the very nice stud dogs have the facilities to accommodate a bitch for a few days to be mated & will have 110% more experience in stud handling than Joe Bloggs with a nice enough boy down the street & therfore alleviate the concerns with travelling back & forth to a stud dog - I am sure that there must be the same in the States.
I would contact some reputable kennels in your state & ask their opinion of what dogs they may have that would suit your bitch
Heather

excellent post Karen and Heather too

I'll have to do some research, I have emailed a few breeders around the area with some simple questions and to be honest they either don't anwser you or if you don't have or want a show dog they can't be bothered. Quite a few years back I wanted to purchase a saint and the breeder asked me if I was going to show and when I told the breeder it was going to be my family pet, she said I'll have to see if I have any, well needless to say, she never contacted me. My 1st saint was a granddaughter of one of her champions which I had for 13 years until she passed. Last year I saw this same breeder advertising her pups in a few local newspapers which she never did before.
I am so glad I found this website as you are all so friendly and will respond, like I've mentioned before there are not alot of saint breeders in my state, if there are, they don't ever advertise anywhere.

ok heres my view

if your bitch is suitable for breeding and you find the correct dog for her then theres a good chance you can help better the breed and make saints more popular in you area if it rare they are for sale then it could go two ways each one sells very quickly or because nobody wants one and the last breeder in your area gave up after finding it hard to sell her pups

if your bitch does have a weekness eg loose eyes find a tight eyed dog

i know you plan to breed so you will go head but its best to get other peoples views on it

now to say you are going to you are garenteed people will be againsit it due to all the things that could go wrong thats true but the people things go wrong with still breed after anyway with the same bitch or another

also when you say you plan to have a child of your own you never hear people saying all the things that could go wrong why is that???

you dont need to be a qualified vet or nurse to have puppies most breeders arent they learn as they go
if you have good stock and go ahead you will be adding to the numbers of our breed and without breeding of st bernards they will soon disapear !!!

the choice is down to you - you have to do all the hard work and it is very hard at times but the joy of seeing a litter nicely raised far outweigh a few nights of no sleep and a battle of feeding etc

i will always help new breeders and maybe if the older breeders helped aswell there would be less problems with the whole thing

im new to st bernards myself but have had other litters and have already had people expressing that i should not give advise after one litter of st bernards- yet as other breeders are against new breeders who else will- ive had at least ten litters from tiny chihuahuas to st bernards and cross breeds ( not my own dogs ive just done the whelping)

ive worked in vets and at a lovely vet school in cambridge and see both sides of what happens at breeding its not put me off but i am aware of what goes wrong

the choice is yours but there will always be people for and against anything you do

best of luck

cheri xxx

Thanks Cheri for all your words,I appreciate you not putting anyone down because we are not established breeders and for trying to help, that is why I joined your forum, everyone needs to start sometime. I am in a better situation now in my life for this then when I was younger. I am 51 years old, I work at home, my children are grown adults, I have more patience and time, I have the property and space in my home and I have always loved saints and have had one always around me since 1993. Do I want to breed a 100 litters, hell no, maybe I'll do it once and that maybe enough, I won't know that til I try.

As long as your dog is in good health to have puppies then it should be okay. I know the whole showing thing means alot to some breeders and people but there are also people like me that is not into that and simply loves saints and wants one as a family pet and not everyone can afford to spend the amount of money on a puppy just because the puppies mom or dad was a champion so there needs to be a balance out there. Just because mine isn't a show dog, doesn't make her any less special. My first saint came from a whole list of champions yet she did not have the right look for a champion, she was a half mask, tall legs, very skinny body but the most lovable saint you could ever meet and lived til the age of 13.
I joined this forum to meet other saint lovers and to share info and I appreciate everyone's honesty. Breeders out there please don't take any personal, I can appreciate your love for showing your dogs, but some of us simply love them as a family pet and there is nothing wrong with that.

your right

2 champions do not make all show quality puppies and you cant say they do at 8 weeks when they leave you anyway

a very good pedigree on paper can belong to a terrible looking mismarked bad hip scored dog!

NOBODY knows the outcome of a litter - you can make a good guess but will never be sure

all the things you say you have sounds great

i think you should be looking for a stud that compliments your bitch and has a wonderful temprement

a dog with a slightly weeker pedigree may well be better than a champion with a behavior problem

cheri

thanks

Hi There,

Well after reading the posts, i have to say i definetely agree with most of what has been said. Here goes my essay LOL!

It is not my intention to put anyone off breeding, but to give help & understanding of my own experiences & of things that we know can happen.

We had our first bitch Bella 8 years ago in 2001. to us she was a champion, our first big dog & a breed we adored. She did well at shows, although was not bought to be a show dog, just a pet, but we were encouraged by people we met to try showing & we enjoyed it as much as she did. Champion quality, in somes eyes no, she was highly critisised by some breeders, but that did not phase us too much, she had a temperament to die for & still has. We waited for 3 years before we had our first litter. We had opinions from almost everyone as to why we should or should not breed from her. We hipscored, looked at various pedigrees, studs & thier offspring, then finally decided on a dog. The dog we choose didnt want to mate her, (I guess like people dogs can be fussy too!) despite her chasing him round sticking her backside in his face! We were so disappointed. We spoke to the lady that was helping do the mating, (she ownes a large kennel) & she showed us a couple of her dogs that would compliment her & the pedigrees looked compatible. Mating took place & we had 8 lovely puppies. Bella had to have a c-section as she had primary inertia & could not deliver herself. 5 live born & 3 stillborn. We were really upset at the loss, it was our first litter & an experience we never forget or take for granted. Anything can go wrong. Recently we had a perfectly healthy female loose an entire litter of 10 pups & had to have a c-section to get them out. They were all stillborn yet she was healthy before & during her prefnancy, nothing could explain why it happened. She went full term with no problems.

Other litters we have had have gone well, others have resulted in losses of the babies between the first few vital weeks or some born with deformaties that result in loosing them shortly after. Again the upset you feel is second to nothing. Nothing in my mind is worse than rearing a litter for 4 weeks & suddenly out of nowhere you loose one or maybe more, with no real explanation.

Personally, i am not against anyone new or established wanting to breed. As in everything, we all have to start somewhere. Its our experiences that can help & guide new people into hopefully avoiding the mistakes that at some point we have all made & to help the experience for a new breeder to be a good one, but with backup if it does go wrong, and as we all know, some are lucky never to experience a problem, but inevitably we all will at some point. Its nature. We can try our best to improve, by choosing healthy lines, compatible ones too, but it comes down to knowledge & mother nature at the end of the day. Once those babies arrive, its in the lap of the gods that they make it to the 8 weeks till they leave us. Even the most experienced can have problems, as sadly we have all learned & there is always something new that one of us hasnt experienced that we can all learn from.

Again, my personal view is a natural mating is more successful than an AI, although as heather says, the AI technique in the USA seems to be more successsful than in the UK.

A rough to smooth will not necessarily give you a mixed litter. I have known mixed coat matings to produce either all smooths or all rough coats, it depends on which is doiminant in each dog. For example, if both parents are smooth, the likely hood of an all smooth litter is greater than that of a smooth/rough mating, however if the grandparents are both roughs, then you may get a rough or 2 in that smooth/smooth mating litter. same with both roughcoats, if the parents of the roughs are smooths, then you may get a smooth or two thrown in.

Raising a litter is exciting, the rewards of watching these little beings grow & develop their characters in my mind is worth every tear i shed if we loose any. Yes there can be complications as we all have experienced. The minute the bitch is mated, anything can go wrong. We mated a bitch last year, 4 weeks later resulted in a pyometra. Untreated this can be life threatening. Luckily we saw & caught it in time, however she had to be speyed to save her.

Litters are exciting & rewarding, but also time consuming & expensive, you never stop worrying from the minute they are born, until they leave, then you spend the next 10 years wondering if the pup is ok LOL! Sleepless nights a plenty too !

As others have said, do look around, you may even have to look outside your own state for the best dog even if that means importing semen to be frozen for when she is ready.

Importing semen is also time consuming. You need to find out the requirements of your government. Stud dogs usually have to have some blood tests to make sure they do not carry certain viruses. When we sent semen to Guatemala this took over 4 months to organise. Giorgio had to have 3 blood tests done within 30 days of the semen being taken & shipped. These took 14days to come back with the results. Then we had to organise getting him to the company that has facilities to take the semen & ship it correctly. The receiving vet needs to have facilities to store it correctly until it is needed also. When semen is frozen, the mobility rate will decline a small % when it is thawed for use, you need to bear that in mind too. We sent our semen chilled for freezing on arrival, it was still 70% mobile when it was thawed recently to be used, which is still pretty good, but it does depend on the fertility rate/% of that semen when taken.

As others have said, health issues in both lines have to be looked at, also compatability. Its no good finding a dog with great lines, seems compatable, but temperament is terrible! Lots to think about.

Hope that my essay helps somewhat, dont be afraid to ask questions, or challenge an answer, after all this is your experience & as the saying goes " For warned is forearmed"

Best of luck
Kathy x x

well said kathy !

Thanks Kathy, appreciate what you have to say, I am here to learn as well as make some saint lover friends. I think it's kinda cool to meet people in the UK and elsewhere and see the differences on how people do things.

I know it takes alot of patience, dedication and money to do the shows with your dogs, I am not into doing it myself but do enjoy watching the shows on tv.

My best friend is a vet assistant and I don't know about the whole US but where she works AI is popular, she says they do it all the time , she raises labs and owns both parents yet she uses AI and she finds it successful and easier. Just a matter of preference I guess.

Hopefully I will get the chance to experience that feelings of raising a litter if I can find a stud for her. My husband and I both prefer the rough coats so I guess I will try to find a rough coat male. I have a year to set this all up so if anyone with a handsome male is interested, let me know.
Thanks again everyone, you've all been honest and helpful and it's appreciated. I'm sure if this ever happens for me, I'll have alot questions for all of you.

No problem, you're very welcome

Good luck x x