A topic for debate on breeding...

I have been reading a blog by a chap called David Cavill ... http://davidcavill.wordpress.com/

Am interested to see what other owners/breeders think about what he says?

Given that the Kennel Club registers about a quarter of a million puppies each year (probably something less than one third of the total born) you can see that there is a long way to go. In practice, if all the best breeders moved to a larger scale and bred many more puppies so they fulfilled the demands of the market, ( as is largely the case in Scandinavia where almost all puppies born are both planned and of pedigree) then the puppy farmers would not have a market and would cease to be involved. But while most responsible breeders are so narrowly focused this is unlikely ever to happen.

What do forum members think on this?

well

heres my view- remember it seems i often get missunderstood !!! but im me and thats that!!!!

IF that was the case then that would mean puppies would be sold alot quicker when "breeders" have pups, they wouldnt end up on epupz for a week or so first...........

some puppies seem to be hanging around for weeks on epups and go long after 8 weeks old

also i think the other part of it is...... not all would want to go to a "puppy farm" but are desperate for a bernard and simply cannot afford the price that some breeders are charging.... some pups are up at £1250 etc with no more than a piece of paperwork that doubles there price than a "puppy farmer" - i think if people are buying a "pet" a kennel club cert isnt always as important as others think..... and MAYBE pet owners feel a piece of paper is not worth £600 plus alone ........

i think if we upped the " breeders" breeding then there would be more trouble homing pups UNLESS breeders came down on prices

bare in mind that Alpennine sell there pups at £650 INCLUDING KENNEL CLUB PAPERS and never once have i heard that they havent sold there puppies almost instantly!!! they hip score they provide puppy packs and there dogs make wonderful long lived pets with a full back up support of a breeder .......

so maybe if breeders came down in price it would help ..................

BUT the other side of it is that if a puppy price falls alot of uncommited people will buy one when maybe they cant afford the running costs etc or they havent quite thought it through and just want a baby beethoven - then thats the breeders job to "worm" these people out!!!


phew! what do you think about that!? lol

mmm interesting. Well as you know i am not a breeder just an owner. I can see his point to a point if you get me, If the puppy market was so full of reasonably priced top quality pups then there would be no need or room ( we can hope) in the market for puppy farmed dogs. I know the current average price of a Bernie, yes i feel it's a tad high, but that said i would still pay it for the right pup.

But that's just me. Now when we got Indi he was not from the best of breeders, i did not pay top dollar, but the most i could afford, to me and all that knew him, he was the best of all a Bernie stands for. Even when i did dare the ring at a Boston champ show and he danced about like a fairy and made a tit of me,

Would it really be such a bad thing if quality breeder prices were closer to the PF price, would people then say, ooh, we can have one from a mrs somebody at £600 or one from , say for eg , Kathys kennels at £700, i know where i'd go.
But i am a tad more informed than some on quality i feel.

Or indeed would it make the numpties of the world think a little less about the over all cost of owning a dog .and impulse buy . I don't know to be honest .
But is it actually working as he states in Scandinavia.?

for those who dont know the current price

i think it ranges from £650 top £1250 for a kc reg puppy - i have seen unreg for £800 .................


Rinnie- your right not every puppy buyer knows the difference between quality dogs and puppy farmers AND even if they got to a farmer- when they actually lay eyes on the pup thats that! they buy it because its cute and cheeper and seems ok OR they buy it as the feel its "saving" it - then the farmer will simply breed another litter as the pups all went so quickly ...........

i paid less for daisy dora and dory TOGETHER than what i paid for dexter!!! but price does not in any way mean that my girls arent nice ............... infact if i could have another 100 daisys then i would!!!! shes my one in a million dog and was cheaper than the rest!!!

breeders need to make money to cover them raising litters and help pay the bills the dogs make- plus its not just bills they make its the extras as we all know! BUT the flip side is not even kc reg dogs are decent at the moment........................................

Of course breeders have to cover costs , and hopefuly make a slight profit where possible, my friend breeds Bulldogs, I have been involved in the last 3 litters from the covering to whelp and rearing, So i am fully aware of the costs involved and what can and does go wrong.

So i think a balance needs to be found somehow. Exactly how thats done is the hard part.

ive no idea either its not easy to say to people to drop the price of there pups when they can and do sell them at a higher price

ive often wondered where the price will stop...... more and more are at the £1100 - £1200 mark

I find peoples views on this topic really interesting. I have only had one pedigreed/papered dog in all my life and it was one that my parents had researched and spent alot of money on when I was younger. The poor little thing had to be PTS at just under 3 years old as she was riddled with cancers that the vet had said that given her age were most likely passed on from the mother. Hip/elbow scores, etc wouldn't have shown this up. Since then both my parents & I have only ever had rescued animals (horses, dogs & rabbits).

I would never buy from a puppy farm but others always will. Even if puppy farms were eradicated you will always get the one-off owners saying "lets just have one litter from them it's only natural"! I guess it's probably the same with dogs as it is with horses that when a mare can no longer be ridden due to injury so many people put them in foal. They do not investigate why that injury has occured and could it be hereditry as with so many tendon type injuries. Horses are becoming weaker through bad breeding and I guess the same can be said for dogs.

I see myself as having been extremely fortunate in finding my Saints as pups with the RSPCA at 8 wees old. This means that any behavioural problems will be of my own doing instead of mopping up after peoples errors that you get with an older rescue. The only background I have on their parentage is that both parents were Saints that were taken in as welfare cases. The mother in particular was not looking like a Saint as she was so under nourished and pregnant. Both parents were small framed for a Saint. I don't know if we will encounter further health issues over the coming months/years but we will deal with it and give them every possible chance of a healthy and happy life.

We have already had a problem with Kenzo where he has had what the vets call a puppy tumour on one of his pads. It became 3x the size it should have been and it has taken 3 months to start shrinking. We are not far off it being back to normal now and have managed to save his toe which was looking like it was going to be removed at one point.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against breeders in anyway and if people can afford and want a puppy they know has good parentage then thats great. The flipside of that is that there are alot of people who cant afford that initial outlay but can give a puppy a good and happy home life.

Having taken my 2 to the show on Saturday for a socialisation event and to meet with Kathy (who has been great when I've called her to ask questions) I know mine are far from "the standard" but they are mine and I love them for who they are, faults and all. I really enjoyed the show and will definitely go to more in future as Kenzo & Izzy had a great time.

I think this is a debate that will go one forever and I think people have animals for all different sorts of reasons and that nobody should be judged for what path they choose to take.

I'll get down from my high-horse now.

Debbie

Just typed a long old reply & managed to delete it somehow!

I wasn't sure what I thought when I read David's blog to be honest.

I agree that prices are now beyond what I would consider reasonable. I know many more people are health testing but probably over 80% of pups that Joe Average buys come from parents who aren't tested, and both 'kinds' of puppies are being sold for £1200?

I did recently ask a lady who has puppies advertised from parents who aren't tested & have pedigrees full of dogs with no affix & therefore no-one seems to know anything about them, how she justified asking so much & she said it's the going rate.
While I don't think that a puppies pedigree has to be wall to wall Champions, you would expect that for that kind of money someone within a 5 generation pedigree (over 30 dogs) would have seen fit to get their breeding stock into the show ring & made up.

Puppies that cost £1200 are in reality just as likely to have bits drop off as a puppy costing £650!

In terms of the best breeders breeding on a larger scale, well that depends on their ability to house a large herd of Saints, which actually is exactly the kind of set up the most Welsh puppy farmers have, big outbuildings & lots of land etc.
Probably only 1% of the significant kennels here have that sort of set up. They would also have to keep the prices at the ridiculous lever they are now in order to cover their costs & still do a very good job as we all know Saints are not the easiest to rear in terms of having to have constant human presence.

I don't actually know how this works in practise in Sweden. I do know they prefer to breed once their breeding stock become Champions. I co-own a bitch with Carina in Sweden so will ask her to post her comments on here as well.

I have discussed the possibility of selling my next litter in a different kind of way, in looking at charging only what it costs to raise the litter ie the costs of expenses BUT including a puppy kept back (for whelping time etc) & a donation from each puppy to the Rescue & dividing the all the expenses equally.. that then being the cost of each puppy.
I guess you could also include the cost of health testing another of your herd ready for breeding from each litter. Obviously the prices would vary from litter to litter, depending on size & any vet dramas etc.

If we are breeding to keep back, either to show or breed on from (which in my opinion is the only reason we should be breeding) we don't lose out as all our costs are covered & we've got our puppy that we bred the litter for in the first place.
Obviously this would be easier to maneovre with large litters & yes you could possibly attract more f**kwit enquiries, however you would then have more potential homes to choose from.
The breeders truly dedicated to this breed spend their lives looking for the next excellent example of the breed in litters they produce, almost to the point of hysteria, NOT looking for how the puppies they sell can sub their showing/holiday etc until the next litter.

I haven't actually applied my brain to the nitty gritty of this idea yet & am sure it would cause much rumbling within the breed but it should be more about finding the very best PERMANENT homes for the puppies that we choose not to keep back.
In my experience (there are a couple of notable exceptions) some of my very best pet homes are the people who DON'T have £1200 to buy a puppy!!

In my experience (there are a couple of notable exceptions) some of my very best pet homes are the people who DON'T have £1200 to buy a puppy!!

And isn't this a big issue. I know when we got Indi , we had to go on a waiting list and we saved for best part of a year to pay for him, we have always been able to pay for the day to day things etc. But the initial outlay was something else.

Of course long standing dedicated breeders want the best from the best to improve and better the breed, and as a potential owner it is important to me that you do what you do , but a large portion of what is bred is subsequently owned by folk like me. so costs have to be a factor, and if you cant' breed a herd to keep these down a bit you will have to pass it on through the sale of the pups.

As just a pet owner i can't always see the fine details involved in yrs of fine tuning your dogs, so i hope i don't come across as ignorant in these matters. But a balance is needed i feel.

I know that when we feel ready to fill the void from losing Indi we will be spoilt for choice of good breeders to go to .

i totally agree ...................

i have sold a couple dogs now at a much lower price ( my price is £1000 normally for what its worth!) - nothing wrong with them, just the money was a big issue, ive also had one paid via paypal! ( a good friend of mine actually the timing was wrong for her but she wanted a particular pup !!!!)
and in my next litter i will be giving a puppy to someone as a gift- not a runty one or the "ugly" one but whichever one they want as i truely believe its not about the money but more often the loving home they can go to.

especially when a dog has died suddenly and a huge viod is left behind...... then the owner is left with an empty house and no money to buy in a new dog- maybe because they spent huge amounts on the dog who died or maybe becasue they simply cant afford it- THESE are often the best homes for a pup!!!

As "just" an owner I can not even imagine the cost of breeding a puppy.
In Norway the "standard" price for Saints are 12000 NOK (£1338-ish).
When I started looking for a pup I did a browse of the kennels through NKK (norwegian kennel club)
and took it from there. Did send mails to diferent breeders telling them about myself, what I could provide and what I looked for in a dog.
In the end it came down to the location of the breeder, as I wanted to pick up the pup for myself and also get the chanse to meet the breeder
and get a "feel" about if this was the correct people to "trust".
I so far feel confident I chose the "best" when it came to my litle girl. I announced in the early stage that I wanted a big hairy slobber ball
A family membet that would happily roll around in the dirt outside at the farm, before running inside on the newly cleaned floor... (something I
think I will have to chew up later)
The breeder then gave me the option to choose between some girls, and I told her to pick out one that did not have the "show dog" quality.
Let the show people have the show dogs, and just give me a healthy life companion
When it came down to the day leaving for the 14h drive (one way) to the place where the breeder lives (yes, this is the closes one to me) I had to text her to get the correct price for me to transfere the money for the pup (Moll is half-masked and sold at a reduced price).
In my case money were never the issue, mind we have been saving up for it for some time, but I feel that "you get what you pay for".
I have a lovley pup chewing up my shoos everytime she gets a chance, slobbers on my new sofa, terrorizes my JRT, chews on the cat, barks at the horses and the cows (in adition to trying to steal theyr food) but she is the best! And on top of that I know i can always contact the breeder with any questions I might have! I did not only buy a pup, but also a hugh ammount of the breeders spare time
So in that SHORT *cough* note I am trying to say, all honors to the breeders! Not only do they provide us with so much joy by honoring us with puppys, but they also dedicate themself to be oure guides throughout the dogs life, and then some. Not sure if the fee of the pup will ever actually be posible to compare with that...

Sia

Like heather, i am taking time to digest Davids blog, not sure what i feel about it, given that our own code of ethics clearly states that we are "not to breed to demand", that being for a waiting list.

Like many, we breed our girls, only to keep back a youngster to carry on when the older ones retire.

We, again like many, bought a 'pet', nothing more when we went looking for our first saint, we didnt go to the big kennels, we researched the breed for years & avoided the known names as we felt they just churned puppys out. We travelled 6 hours for our Bella .... & paid a meagre (in todays times) £650 for her. No big fancy pedigree with loads of top dogs for Bella, but she was my first & will always be the love of my life. Many looked upon her as being 'a nice pet' when we started to show, but she did me proud, not only beating a well known CH to gain her Stud book number winning OB class, but also won Reserve Dog of the year, coming 2nd to Mary Pearl. No bad for 'just a pet'.

We have over the years accumulated many dogs with problems, faults, health issues & some have never seen the show ring, or retired from it through not enjoying it. They have gone on to have a litter & produced well, just like many others in the breed.

Price seems to escalate year on year! Even people who are inexperienced, & are having their first litter think nothing of charging what the top kennels do, yet they dont have the years of research or experience that the rest of us have taken time & alot of investment to build a reputation.

I need to go off & think about this some more .............