sending in of hip scores

ok so here in the uk hip scoring isnt a requirement of st bernards unless you are on the abs.

however what do you think about this ........................

you take your dog to the vets to be hip scored.... the hips look bad and the score will be high so your vet gives you the choice.... send it off anyway or BIN IT!!!

more and more people are binning there bad results and then not admitting to others what they have done! ive heard it happen loads in our breed ( but we cant be the only breed it must be the same in others)

do you think if you book your dog in to be scored it should be sent to the bva anyway no matter what the score is??? a kind of no going back route???

views welcomed please!!!

Aha ... now you know MY views on this one Cheri considering our discussion the other day

Personally I feel that if you book in your dog for Scoring, then they should be send off, no choice given. This is a discussion I have had with many people in the breed over the last 9 years. I have always sent in my x-rays regardless of what they look like & I know others have too .. its the only way we can get on the road to having a true score for our breed!

hehehehehe knew youd be here!!!

as said it means our "breed mean" is totally rubbish!!!

cheri

Xrays should be sent in regardless if the purpose was for hipscoring IMO.
The PennHipp (as opposed to the BVA) method costs about £450 to do here & only a few vets do it but you can have it done from about 4-6 months old for Saints.. Submission is compulsory, you don't get the choice

This is a subject which has often been discussed and like Kathy, I have strong views on this. All our x-rays get submitted - good
and bad. It should be compulsory, as until all the hips and elbows are scored our Mean Score will always be a false low. I strongly
feel that all breeding stock should be hip and elbow scored and the KC should not register puppies from unscored parents. I am not suggesting
we only breed from very low scores, but at least if we know the scores of our dogs then we can put a slightly higher score to a lower score - at
least we know what we are dealing with. There should be many factors we take into account when planning a mating, not just hip scores and it
is important to look at the whole picture, but at least it is one of the many health issues in our breed that we can try and do something about.

Karen

Totally agree Karen, like they do in Europe ... there as you know is a Letter system .. A, B C etc .... & you then choose a corresponding dog to the bitch you want to mate .. i.e A dog with a C score, can only be mated to a B or an A etc etc .... then its not about 'numbers' per se ...... but yes, the KC need to look at the whole scoring thing ...

I don't know how the scoring system in the US works (is there a scoring system?) but I do know that the next saint that I get from a breeder had better have hip information available! my mom's saint breeder in cali gave her a written guarantee of lifetime hip health, and that if anything was wrong with her hips, she would pay any costs for surgery, etc.

I think breeders that sell their pups to uneducated future owners (or people that don't really know the problems with hips, joints, and excessive weight gain in saints) would be less likely to inform their buyers about hip problems if they "don't have to" or don't get questions about it.

If I were a breeder though, I think I would feel obligated to make sure that my pups were of the highest quality possible and that buyers were fully aware of any issues in my lines, including hip and elbow problems and test results.

I think it really comes down to 2 things: 1.) educating potential new saint owners so they know to ask about these things, and 2.) ethical breeding practices. I wouldn't want my reputation to be damaged because somewhere down the line, someone found out I lied about or hid hip results and someone ended up with heartbreaking decision regarding their "defective" pup. (no pup is ever defective in my eyes, I just meant a pup with a serious problem).

Hip surgery is expensive and I would hate to think that a pup I bred had to go through it and their owner had to pay for it because I was deceptive! A friend of the family adopted a Newfie/border collie mix, and she has 2 bad hips and was quoted at $8000 US per hip for replacement surgery! OUCH!

In South Africa it's also not compulsory to have the dogs scored, unless you are an AB.
Though: that said, if you do have your dogs hips checked, YOU don't get the results. It's directly sent to KUSA (The kennel union). You get a copy of the info, but you cannot stop the results from being registerd against your dog.

The downside is that you then have a score next to your dog. And considering 90% of dogs in this country doesn't get scored, this now means that your dogs is 'bad' vs 'unscored' dogs that is considered 'better' (Just because the 'normal' person out there doesn't know any better).

The 'good' from that is that the serious breeders now HAVE to look for 'clean' dogs, and in this country there is not a whole lot of those. Which means one have to import. BUT I suppose that is not altogheter a bad thing (except for the cost -our currency isn't the strongest you know).

Besides that: i'm also of the opinion that way to much attention is given to hips. I had a dog with bad hips, and she didn't have 1 day of trouble. Eventually died of cancer.
I know of dogs that have slighly graded hips that cannot walk. So I suppose it depends on the dog -how they handle it.
I also had a dog with clean hips, but with the worst temperament ever. Then I say: rather give me 10 dogs with bad hips, then one with good hips, and a mean temperament!

I hear you Doline..!

I use the phrase many do here ... "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water"

Many dogs that have 'High' scores have many other good attributes (clean, dark, tight eyes, good bites, bone & generally move very well) that will contribute towards their offspring. Compare that against dogs that have 'low' scores where some could have bad temperaments, loose eyes, lacking in bone etc.... the comparisons are endless.

I personally don't think that the hip score should always be the deciding factor when choosing who to breed from, of course that depends on the score & the general conformation of said dogs, but i think although it should be ONE of the deciding factors, you shouldn't look past another dog that has other good points, but a higher score. At the end of it all, two dogs with low scores can still produce offspring that has a hip problem & by the same token a higher scored dog can produce low scoring offspring, as I have seen for myself

Not sending them in was never an issue when we had Indi done, i didn't see what was to hide from good or bad, we had them done for our own peace of mind , or to forewarn us of any impending problems. luckily his scores were below average and he has never in almost 7 yrs had any hip issues.
Phoenix was never going to be bred from so we didn't do his, but we did have him x-rayed at 6 months, they were good,
Maybe doing it to all dogs will give a clearer picture , but as this is optional it will always be hit and miss won't it.

This is me speaking from ignorance on the topic here, but are hip/elbow scores required to register your dogs or pups anywhere in the world? Does anyone know? Just curious.

It frustrates me that at least in the US anyone can register their dog AKC provided their parents were AKC, but it still allows anyone to breed to any other AKC dog, even if they aren't truly trying to better the breed. I see a lot of ads for $1000 AKC puppies with no champion bloodlines and no hip/elbow scoring available on the parents and it annoys me that people may be breeding good saint qualities out of the breed!

you only have to hip scored if you are a accredited breeder in england

different breeds have different rule for saints its hips and not to breed under two years old

however if your not accredited the bitch can be bred from from a year old

Same here. Anybody can register as long as the parents are registered. And I have seen some sorry looking 'registerd' Saints.

The general public assume they are buying an up to standard dog if it's registered. But that actually is a zero on a contract... Means nothing.

Therefore the accredited scheme is a good Idea.

I'm actuall working on a 'system' (I'll need to get the correct people on board though) whereby anybody can know what they are buying, without being a pro on pedigrees and attending endless dogshows.

I got the idea from the Fresian breeders assosiation (I'm breeding horses as well).
They work on a F1-F4 and then SP system. F1 is the very basics of registered horse. When you breed F1 to say a F2 or f3, the filly/colt will be a F2. (always one count better then the mare). That is the way you move up the ladder. SP is the top, and it means it was F4 for atleast 2 generations, or if both parents are SP. Sp's are thus more valuable and expensive to buy.

I figured one could do a 'star' system on dogs.
Say 1* -registered dog
2* -Registerd tested dog -tests not clear (doesn't matter the breed, whatever health issues the particular breed might have -it's tested)
3* -Registered -not tested at all, but a Champ (though I think it's unlikely that serious breeders will not test???)
4* - Registered and tested clear for whatever health issues the breed might have
5* - Registered and tested -not neccesarily clear on all tests (eg. hipscore of B and C) and a Champ
6* - Registered, tested clear, a Champ
7* - Registered, tested clear , a Champ and born from Champs

Then anybody anywhere can know exactly what they are buying according to the stars?

You think this might work?



Do you think such a system might work?