shall i stud him?

hi i have a 17 mth old smooth kc reg we got him as a family pet and didnt even think of studing him but i have had 3 people approach me asking if i am going to stud him and giving me there number for if i do i have never done it before and wouldnt no where to start will it change his temperment at all i have small children and am worried that it might not make him such a lovely pet any advice will be grately recived he is handsome it seems a shame not to. but i am biased i suppose lol thanks jem

This intregues me as on your other post about getting him a friend i asked if youd get a puppy or adult and your reply was "rather rehome dont think its right to get a puppy when there are poor lonely saints out there needing a new home" but you seem interested in helping produce more puppies???

no i just think that as i dont mind getting an older dog it might be nice give a dog that needs rehoming a a home rather than getting a pup im not against puppys i think that if its right for your family to get a pup then u should. sorry if it came across wrong

Hi
Few things to think about...

- You say he's KC reg, are his papers endorsed 'not for breeding'? If they are & the breeder will not remove them any subsequent puppies could not be KC reg
- Have you spoken to his breeder? His breeder would (or should) know about any health problems behind your boys parents that could be avoided in the future by not doubling up by using on him a bitch of similar breeding.
- Is he health tested? Are you prepared to health test? Recommended are BVA hips & elbows & many people are now also testing for heart & eye conditions. That lot will set you back anywhere between £400 & £800
- Are you prepared to help a bitch owner find permanent homes for the puppies if need be?
- Nothing worse than a dodgy first time experience for a stud dog to put them off for life, so you will need to find an experienced stud handler.
- I believe the current Health & Welfare recoomendations are that both dogs & bitches shouldn't be bred from until at least 2 years of age

I haven't found being used at stud has changed my boys temperaments, however, once they recognse that certain smell, the incessant yelling that the boys do while a bitch in season is around is enough to drive anyone nuts!

Heather

hi thanks for all the advice i have had a look at his pappers and cant see any thing on it that said not for breeding as for talking to the breeders i didnt get him from as a pup so not to sure how to contact them. do most vets do all the tests that they need?

Most vets can do the BVA hip & elbow scoring - if you want the eye & heart testing done, your vet will be able to tell you if they can do that or if there is clinic that does these tests specifically.

What's your boy's KC reg name? If there is an affix that will usually be recognised by someone in the breed who may know the breeder. Under the name/dob bit it will say the name of the breeder(s) as well

I'm sure Gwen & Tom (Alpennine) endorsed their pups KC registrations... ?!

On his KC papers, on the right hand side, there is a heading that says 'Endorsements' in bold letters. If there is an 'X' under that, then he is endorsed 'Progeny not eligible for registration' which means without the breeder lifting them with the KC no puppies from your boy can be KC registered.

I'm not sure if Gwen continues to endorse or not, but if it is there, it will need removing, & as you did not buy him direct from Gwen, i dont know her standing on that as again she possibly may have sold him with a contract to his previous owner. Best try to get in touch and ask directly. I'm sure Cheri has a contact number for her.

As well as the Health testing, has anyone who is established 'in the breed' seen your boy or have you tried showing him to get a 'judges' opinion on how he stands up to the breed standard & other dogs out there who are being shown?

We all love our dogs & believe they are the best, but sometimes they are not the best to breed on from, trust me, i have several here i wouldn't breed from myself & I adore each & every one of them & ive been going for 12 years lol!

super thanks i have looked at his pappers and he is not endorsed so i might see if ther are any shows local and take him a long to see what they think. never shown a dog before so that will be fun thanks again jem

Its courteous to let his breeder know where he is as Gwen may still be under the impression that he is with the person she sold him to.

yes do, you need KC Licenced Open or Championship shows ideally, as thats where most of us show & where you are likely to get the best feedback as the judges will tell you their thoughts if you ask, & if you are placed 1st or 2nd in your class then they will write a critique for the dog papers. Exemption shows are not the best place for getting a good idea how he stands up against others in the breed.

Im assuming you have already transferred him into your ownership already? That must be done for any show entries etc. Contact the breed clubs, find out when they will be holding their next show etc.

As we as a breed are on the High Profile list, it is very important that background info is found out about his pedigree etc,. Movement, eyes, hocks, drop of lip, wrinkle etc are some of the points that are 'of concern' by the KC. As are many hidden problems with health, Epilepsy, heart problems etc... the things we cannot test for or see on X-rays.

Here is some information from the KC website:

You will probably find that breeders or breeding kennels are not usually interested in using privately owned dogs for stud purposes, unless the dog has some special qualifications or show merit, or has the pedigree and health certificates that they require for their breeding programme.

Before breeding from a dog or bitch, the Kennel Club advises breeders to investigate whether there are any possible inherited conditions that may affect the breed. Breeders can do this by discussing the matter with the breeder of their dog, the relevant breed club or clubs, the Kennel Club Health & Breeders Services Department or, possibly, their veterinary surgeon. There are several health schemes currently in operation to assist in the prevention or control of some diseases (including DNA tests), and where they exist, the Kennel Club strongly recommends that both sire and dam are tested.

The Kennel Club's Dog Health Test Search Tool allows you to search for any health results for a dog which is registered on the Kennel Club’s Breed Register either by its registered name or registration number (or stud book number). It will display any health screening results received and recorded by the Kennel Club from a British Veterinary Association/Kennel Club (BVA/KC) health scheme or an official Kennel Club DNA testing scheme.

Using your dog at Stud

The following article was written by Mr M Stockman MRCVS and gives a further insight into using your dog at stud:

To the uninitiated it would seem that the best way of making money out of the dog game is to own a successful dog of a popular breed. You simply advertise him as being available at public stud and then sit back and watch the fees roll in! It costs no more to keep him than if he were not at stud, the bitches do the travelling and you get your fee when the mating is complete, not when the litter is born… what could be easier?

Doubtless there are people who try to do just that; and there are probably those who actually get away with it. But what should happen? What should the dog owner do in order to make certain that he or she is doing the best for the breed?

First of all let’s ask a few pertinent questions:

Is the dog fertile? Is he possessed of the libido to do the job effectively? The mere fact that he has a tendency to chase every bitch in sight whether she’s in season or not, doesn’t necessarily mean that he will have a clue what to do when it comes to the point; and if the owner hasn’t either, frustration of all concerned is liable to be the order of the day.

To be honest, you can read up just so much about mating techniques, but the experience of a knowledgeable breeder and stud dog handler is the most useful asset you can have. In truth, the only really fool proof way of finding out what your dog is like at stud, is to give him the chance with a sensible bitch (preferably not a maiden herself) and see that you enlist experienced help if you possibly can. As far as finding out whether your dog is fertile, you can take all the samples you like, but there is no substitute for the real thing in the shape of a litter in the nest.

But, that said, shouldn’t we be looking a lot further back before we get this far?

Have we checked with fellow breed enthusiasts about what hidden problems there may be within the breed? Has the dog been examined under the relevant health schemes which are appropriate to the breed. i.e. hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia and inherited eye disease. In one or two breeds it would be sound policy to have the heart tested, and in addition, there are now several DNA tests available to help eliminate inherited diseases in many breeds. I am not trying to suggest that these examinations are universally needed, but most of us, if we are honest, know which problems occur in the breeds in which we have a special interest.

Even if the dog turns out to be a paragon of virtue, is he of such merit that he truly offers the future generation real benefit? It is undoubtedly very flattering to have somebody come up to you just after you have won yet another puppy or junior class and ask if the apple of your eye is available at stud. If the enquirer is one of the better known and successful breeders in your breed, it is usually a feather in your dog’s cap; if on the other hand, the question comes from the sort of person who runs to every new champion in the making, be careful. Used on the wrong bitches, he may well sire progeny which will do him no good at all. Be ready with an answer, which gives you a “get-out”, such as seeing how the pedigree would click, before the question is ever asked.

If you have done all the right things in relation to health testing, don’t let your dog down by allowing him to be used on bitches which have not had similar tests. I know all the stories about how “this person arrived with the bitch already in season, and she had never heard about hip dysplasia, and anyway it was only a pet bitch so they weren’t interested in all this posh Kennel Club stuff”!

And then they go on: “after all it’s better that they should use a dog that had been scored than one that hadn’t; and if I had refused they would have only gone to the next dog down the road”. Well let them!

There will still be those who will merely say: “Oh, that’s just Stockman rabbiting on about inherited disease; the vets are all the same.” But surely those who put their dogs at stud in whatever sphere ought to take some responsibility for what they sire.

However busy life may be for a breeder, it doesn’t take long to keep a reasonably accurate check on what a dog’s offspring do. It is lovely to see his progeny winning in the ring. In some ways it’s even better than doing the winning yourself. We all like to hear when the good news comes. It’s not so funny when we learn that one’s favourite has sired a cryptorchid, an epileptic, or a dysplastic. Note that I said that he’d sired it; that doesn’t mean he is necessarily the one who is responsible for the defect. We don’t know enough about the genetics of many conditions to be able to say whether or not both sire and dam must have contributed to the problem. So the sire should not be condemned unless it is positively known that the genetic input responsible for a particular defect has to come from both parents.

However, we blame bitch owners for mating their bitches without having any idea of who’s going to be in the queue for the pups when they are whelped, and rightly so in many cases. If the owner of the sire had questioned the mating, had tried to dissuade the eager novice-breeder, or would take responsibility for helping find the right homes, the rescue services wouldn’t be strained to bursting point.

Although this article was written several years ago, it is still relevant in today’s society, and definitely provides food for thought.

The Kennel Club Code of Ethics:

All breeders who register their puppies, and new owners who register ownership of their dogs with the Kennel Club, accept the jurisdiction of the Kennel Club and undertake to abide by its general Code of Ethics.

Breeders/Owners:

Will properly house, feed, water and exercise all dogs under their care and arrange for appropriate veterinary attention if and when required.
Will agree without reservation that any veterinary surgeon who performs an operation on any of their dogs which alters the natural conformation of the animal, or who carries out a caesarean section on a bitch, may report such operations to the Kennel Club.
Will agree that no healthy puppy will be culled. Puppies which may not conform to the Breed Standard should be placed in suitable homes.
Will abide by all aspects of the Animal Welfare Act.
Will not create demand for, nor supply, puppies that have been docked illegally.
Will agree not to breed from a dog or bitch which could be in any way harmful to the dog or to the breed.
Will not allow any of their dogs to roam at large or to cause a nuisance to neighbours or those carrying out official duties.
Will ensure that their dogs wear properly tagged collars and will be kept leashed or under effective control when away from home.
Will clean up after their dogs in public places or anywhere their dogs are being exhibited.
Will only sell dogs where there is a reasonable expectation of a happy and healthy life and will help with the re-homing of a dog if the initial circumstances change.
Will supply written details of all dietary requirements and give guidance concerning responsible ownership when placing dogs in a new home.
Will ensure that all relevant Kennel Club documents are provided to the new owner when selling or transferring a dog, and will agree, in writing, to forward any relevant documents at the earliest opportunity, if not immediately available.
Will not sell any dog to commercial dog wholesalers, retail pet dealers or directly or indirectly allow dogs to be given as a prize or donation in a competition of any kind. Will not sell by sale or auction Kennel Club registration certificates as stand alone items (not accompanying a dog).
Will not knowingly misrepresent the characteristics of the breed nor falsely advertise dogs nor mislead any person regarding the health or quality of a dog.
Breach of these provisions may result in expulsion from club membership, and/or disciplinary action by the Kennel Club and/or reporting to the relevant authorities for legal action, as appropriate.


There is also the side of stud dog responsibility. Are you able to help the owner of the litter find homes for their pups. What if a problem crops up in a puppy & your dog gets the blame, can you take that on & have the resources to find out if that truly is the case etc .. these are all things that are possible & could crop up.

It takes alot of thinking about before you go ahead. Whilst none of my boys have had temperament changes with people or other dogs, it can change their ideas about other Males dogs, & not for the better sadly.

gwen hasnt endorsed for a few years now but im sure she would love to hear from you

we have found that although none of our boys have changed in temprement towards us, diesel is very tuned into seasons, not just our girls but those in the village and will make a run for it if he can to the point the other breeders tell me when there girls are in season so diesel isnt allowed off lead out the front of our house ( we have a newfie breeder a mile away and a golden retriver , and bernese breeder), yet dexter and bobo dont care at all and dont bother with our girls or get in a state when we have seasons .

cheri